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Poster: deadmax Date: Jan 4, 2010 5:47am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Cliff was right

So Cliff gave me some advice on how to listen to the '72 Europe shows and I admitted that it was a good idea and resolved to use it. The problem was that I was getting mired in listening to these shows because the first sets are extremely similar both in song selection and quality but there is very little jamming and the bright spots are not as apparent. So he said to focus on the second set jams and I would feel a lot better, probably in many ways.

So what did I do? I put in 4/26/72 and listened to the ENTIRE show. First set and Second set. Doesn't make sense really but there you are. AND after listening to the entire show, I decided that PITB was the only real stand out from the first set which I could have figured out without listening to EVERY OTHER SONG!

I listened to the second set and experienced joy and communion with the cosmos. TOO rocked my world but in a very spacey way. It was long and very cosmic and not real pounding. Almost sounded like a later PITB. There are four songs between the two jam vehicles that are excellently played including El Paso and Two Souls. Go figure. But the star of the show was the Lovelight>GDTRFB>OMSN. OMG! One of the best I've heard. The segue from Lovelight meanders as they trick us a couple of times as to what is coming next. Luckily I had the set list so I knew.

So, I like to give props where props are due. I should have taken Cliff's advice and now that I am on to the May '72 shows I think I will do just that.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 4, 2010 6:01am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

Hey Max--cool to read of your ongoing journey...really. Just as with 76 over at Hook, and 72 posts hereabouts; I appreciate the detail you provide on how various shows, in addition to specific tunes, play out for you.

Had to respond also to your description of how TOO was good, but spacey, and "less pounding"...that really captures the essence of some of my experiences, and in a way, perfectly accounts for what I miss in my early era tunes when played in the latter era.

I know you well enough to know you won't take this as yet another negative response of mine to post 71 material (rather a vague attempt on my part to recognize what I think is "missing" regardless of the fact that the songs could in many ways be "better").

If we take your example of TOO, or others LiA described like DS, or the very simple and obvious example of StSt, the latter era versions of these tunes often do not posses the simplistic, hard driving energetic feel of my beloved 68. StSt is the easiest one to hear this in...

Anyways, keep up the good work, and thanks for sticking with both places.

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Poster: ghostofpig Date: Jan 4, 2010 7:57am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

One of the "negative" things about having all these tapes of tours is that you can sit down and listen to too much too fast. Back to back to back April 72 shows can wear, especially if you wait in anticipation for the second set.

But I think that if listened to in self-context---that is separately from the next nights--that you can get a sense of each show as a self contained gem.

This may help explain heads following tours. If you take, for example, the March 72 Academy of Music run or, better, the Feb 71 Capitol shows (both long runs), it is easy to say that they get redundant, especially in the first set. But as one who attended these runs (much as many of you attended runs such as MSG later)--each night had it's own life, it's own flavor. Yes, they might have played Bertha every night, but not in the same place, etc. And, in the hall, it didn't matter. It was all so fucking good.

Myself, I might pop on a show from Europe '72 and then leave the tour alone for months. Then whatever I play is fresh.

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Poster: light into ashes Date: Jan 4, 2010 7:03am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

What the heck? You haven't said a word about the rest of April '72, or where you stand on The Mightiest April '72 Show! Were you going to leave us poor Forumites in the dark?

Anyway....you're right, the Lovelights on that tour are special. If my memory's right, the one on 5/7 is just as scrumptious.

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Poster: deadmax Date: Jan 4, 2010 11:51am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

I'm getting to it. Had a little sorting out to do.

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Poster: Diamondhead Date: Jan 4, 2010 8:58am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

Fun following this thread. I totally agree with CH. I think his advice explains a lot of why our group tends to stay on this side of the 'great divide'. I'm more of a '74 guy, but I have the same experience. The first set songs with a big jam, and then the second set where all bets were off. Even though I had great fun over 20 years of going to shows, when I listen now, I head towards the PITBs, WRSs, TOOTs of 72-74. I recall reading somewhere that to be in the presence of great music being created on the spot is one of the great listening highs to be had. And I like to try to remember it.

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Jan 4, 2010 11:16am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

The true music of the GD is reflected in their performances of Dark Star,PITB and the Other One circa 72'-74',the rest are just songs.

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Poster: user unknown Date: Jan 4, 2010 4:04pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

"the rest are just songs "

JUST SONGS????

You're kidding, right?

"Dark Star,PITB and the Other One circa 72'-74'"

meh

Sometimes I'm right and I can be wrong...different strokes for different folks



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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Jan 4, 2010 5:16pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

No user unknown ,I'm not kidding,but I don't think you understood my post.I sure as hell don't understand yours.

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Poster: user unknown Date: Jan 4, 2010 6:19pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

You're probably right about me not understanding your post. I definitely DO NOT understand how the entire catalog of Grateful Dead tunes(originals and covers)can be classified as "just songs" and the total 30 year musicality of the ever changing entity known as Grateful Dead can be reduced to three tunes played in a three year period.

http://www.shoprockamerica.com/image.php?productid=2464

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Jan 4, 2010 7:01pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

As I get older I find myself having less patience for the bulk of their catalog.I'm now about 50 shows short of listening and reviewing their output from Keith's first show through 12/31/79.What I've come to realize is that about 80% of their work is mediocre to awful,10% is good,5% very good and 5% is as good as music get's.As far as the 30 years go only 68'-78' really hold any interest for me.So I have no trouble with limiting what I listen to now to a small sampling out of a large pool,being as that I have wasted a tremendous amount of time listening to a whole bunch of crap they have thrown at us has an audience over that 30 year span.

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Poster: pHurthur Date: Jan 4, 2010 8:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

black-spider-monkey2.jpg

Cliff, smarter than the monkey's engineer.

This post was modified by pHurthur on 2010-01-05 04:49:30

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Poster: user unknown Date: Jan 4, 2010 8:12pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

As I said earlier..."...different strokes for different folks".

I have never listened to a show that I couldn't find something positive and entertaining. I'm not saying it is all good, but there is good in all of it.

Photobucket


This post was modified by user unknown on 2010-01-05 04:12:13

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Jan 4, 2010 8:05pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

Valid points that I agree with user unknown,can't swear to the 90's though.




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Poster: Finster Baby Date: Jan 4, 2010 4:44pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

I'm right there with you U.U.

The "just songs" are what the GD are all about to me.

PITB, TOO, Dark Star...all good songs, but once they go beyond 12 mins or so, I lose interest. I know I'm in the minority in this regard, but for the most part, the jams that most other folks love about the band just don't do it for me.

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Poster: The_Tank_Tuba Date: Mar 13, 2010 7:46am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

What do you call a Grateful Dead show where Bobby doesn't play El Paso, Me & My Uncle or Mexicali Blues?

A Jerry Garcia Band show.

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Poster: althea told me Date: Jan 4, 2010 10:32pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

it is evident that you dont have the right mindset of listening to the dead. i agree that if you really had to make a brief summary, that dark star, playin, and the other one reflect the band most accurately through any time period, seeing as they were definately the most improvisational pieces they played and you can tell that when they played those songs it came straight from their heads and more importantly their hearts. however, the rest are definately not JUST songs. every single song that they played was a true reflection of them, and for jerry in particular, it is totally apparent that every single note he uttered was a window to what was going on inside him. i will say that their studio albums are JUST songs, but any live dead show is something more, something special. although all the songs other than the 3 previously mentioned may not have the extensive jamming, you cannot tell me that if you listen to a 77 looks like rain that you cant FEEL the emotions running through bobby when he starts wailing "you were gooooooone" and then donna comes in with her simply beautiful harmonies or the tension building as jerry is plugging away on his guitar. or when you listen to a late 70's or early to mid 80's jack straw and you hear the whole band in an emotional peak and they keep teasing you and finally bobby comes in roarin "JACK STRAW FROM WITCHITA CUT HIS BUDDAY DOWN"!..... i could keep going but i think you get the point... wow i just got alot more into it than intended. i was just surprised that a person claiming to be a such huge deadhead would go off and make such a narrow-minded comment like that.. im sure you have some contempt for me now that i made my statement against you, but i offer you one tid bit of advice that i saw you might need... two wrongs dont make a right.. if someone makes a snide comment to you, what good does it do to perpetuate that vicious cycle of snide remarks when you could be coexisting in harmony...

mike

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Jan 5, 2010 10:23am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

I have no contempt for you ,you have every right to your opinion but I will question you calling me narrow minded ,telling me to listen to it the way you think I should is narrow minded.I at no point refer to myself as a "huge deadhead",I truly enjoy listening to their music but really don't want to be included in that grouping because to me it implies an over the top adoration for a group of musicians,which I think is very obviously reflected in your post,as I am sure you would consider yourself a huge deadhead.As for how Jerry felt while singing Hunter's weak lyrical metaphors about card games and the weather,I won't venture a guess not being a mind reader,but I will say he seemed to forget them regularly.So you listen your way and I'll listen mine.

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Poster: high flow Date: Jan 5, 2010 11:17am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

Wow. You must be Tito's cousin.

I respect your opinion, but the more I read, the less I understand your presence here at LMA GD Forum.

Should your DeadHeadedness suddenly enlarge, the Brotherhood of Huge Deadheads(BOHDH) welcomes you. If you experience a Huge Deadhead for more than 4 hours, contact your physician.

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Jan 5, 2010 11:46am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

It's becoming clear that if you don't have a blind allegiance to all things Grateful Dead people are going to have a problem with your opinion.I'm here because I enjoy listening to and discussing their music,how I feel about is immaterial.I have been around the deadhead scene since 77' and althea told me seems to be a good example of your average deadhead and if that's how it is count me out.I did think your post was funny though.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 5, 2010 1:24pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

Hey jerlou--I appreciate the "critical element", and sometimes don't get the "love em or leave em" response it sometimes engenders (it's the whole "unexamined life ain't worth living" writ small I suppose for me). So, critiques are always welcome in my book.

The only comment I would take issue with is the % ("80%, 10%, etc.").

That may be true over the last 25 yrs of the run, but if you just take one year, like "mine", 68, they were too consistent (tedious would also be a possibility) so that the ave show had the same set list, and roughly same intensity, same energy, etc., etc. I just don't see enough variation in how they played to tease apart that there could be one night in which they are as good as it gets, and the next night they are trash.

That is a common notion for the boys, though: "they could be GREAT, and they could SUCK!", but I largely think careful analysis of particular stretches debunks it...they were generally the same, largley (I understand you could split hairs, but not across the continuum you articulated).

Anyhow, that's what I have come to think about them...another miniera would be Jan thru May 69: those shows, having practiced so diligently for Fillmore, are largely the same...some nights somebody's voice is a bit off, but the playing is largely similar night in and night out...it's only when they change an approach to a song that you get big variations, and certainly DS could show that, as could StSt (take Jun 68 vs Fall 68 vs Spring 69, but within those little periods, the StSt's are all the same, generally).

Just my take on the "Great! and Bad!" over-generaliztion, BUT again, only for a few yrs (68-71).

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Jan 5, 2010 2:42pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right


My wife is with Jerv on the 80% mediocre to awful . . . she might even bump it up to 93 or 94%

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 5, 2010 3:23pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

Oh yeah...I know quite a few that just don't get it...

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Jan 5, 2010 1:49pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

W.T.,the % references I made were about the time period from Keith's 1st show through 1979,all your points about the 60's are well taken and understood.I appreciate your place here on the forum as a force for open discussion and generally getting what it is this place is about.I don't post things to ruffle anyone's feathers,but I see now that every time I don't post in a "kind" robotic deadhead worshipping fashion,I'm going to have to spend my time defending my outlook with narrow minded or stupid people.It's a shame because like yourself there are many intelligent,funny and nice people here to interact with but there not the problem,so I'm back to lurking.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 5, 2010 2:39pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

Cool; hang in there kiddo (as always, just assuming; a good critical eye/ear is always welcome!).

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 4, 2010 3:43pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

Well, in 68, they are damn fine songs.

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Poster: jerlouvis Date: Jan 4, 2010 4:09pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

I didn't mean that as a negative to earlier performances of Dark Star and the Other One of which there were many great examples,to my ear those pieces plus PITB had matured in the 72'-74' era and became the perfect representation of GD music.

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Poster: William Tell Date: Jan 4, 2010 4:54pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

My bad; misunderstood...and, though it is just past the era I spend my time in, I can certainly appreciate PITB as THE Dead song...good choice. And, BTW, this means I saw the versions you like (74-82). On a side note, my fav memory of the Dead Cover Band I worked with (roadie only!) in the 70s is of coming to a gig they were playing, after we'd set up, and I had to leave to get a piece of non-essential equipment and I came back in just as they opened with this, which they did fairly well...blew the place wide open and everyone there was dancin, just absolutely lovin it...made it more personal. Then, one of my sons used the a verse from it for his HS graduation "quote"....so the song has a lot of meaning for me.

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Jan 4, 2010 6:42am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

How funny is this? I owe you props too!

After reading your '76 reviews last night, I dusted off 7/17/76 and ended up listening to the extraordinary jammed out Comes a Time several times before I could move on to the great Other One Suite. It might be my new favorite Comes a Time! The vocals are not as emotive as 12/5/71, but that little jam is a treasure!

I'm finding a new appreciation for '76, particularly those Orpheum performances! Meanwhile enjoy the rest of Europe '72, you have plenty of surprises left to discover...

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Jan 4, 2010 1:48pm
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

That Comes a Time Jam is sweet and sublime, it almost sounds like they are going to break into a lounge act!

;~)

Thanks for the pointer!

This post was modified by jglynn1.2 on 2010-01-04 21:47:21

This post was modified by jglynn1.2 on 2010-01-04 21:48:58

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Poster: deadmax Date: Jan 4, 2010 11:53am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: Cliff was right

That is one of my favorite Comes a Time jams too.

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Poster: Cliff Hucker Date: Jan 6, 2010 6:37am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: "...making croutons out of stale bread ..."

"76, for me, is them making croutons out of stale bread or bringing the fly back to life that you just suffocated in a pile of sugar on the kitchen counter. They try so many new things and surprisingly hit the mark most of the time. Listening to them creating new wings to fly on every night is nothing short of miraculous and as easily understood as a caterpillar becoming a butterfly. They soar to new heights and foist new adventures on each other to see how they will respond. It's a cosmic Red Rover game where each musician challenges another to see if he can break the notes standing arm in arm. What we get is night after night of sheer bliss, Aurora Borealis, an insect mating dance, a Panda chewing. The heights are scaled and we come back with fireworks in our toes and dreams set free."
Deadmax

I love your metaphors here Max, your work is outstanding and though I will always favor the early years, I have a new found appreciation for '76 not in small part due to your prose.

Thanks to your reviews I have recently been enjoying the Orpheum shows which I have not listened to in almost a year. Still waiting for an official Orpheum Box. Thanks Max!

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Poster: jglynn1.2 Date: Jan 6, 2010 9:59am
Forum: GratefulDead Subject: Re: '...making croutons out of stale bread ...'

Deadmax is on it for 76

http://www.archive.org/details/gd1976-06-14.sbd.bettycantor.gems.82308.flac16

For clarification this is the source that Deadmax review is on:
http://www.archive.org/details/gd76-06-14.sbd.hollister.22804.sbeok.shnf

Reviewer: deadmax - [4.0 out of 5 stars] - May 11, 2009
Subject: The whole show...
is fast-paced for '76 and expertly played. Takes off with a fast and bright BIG RIVER. Set closer PITB is 18 min. and everything you expect.

2nd Set highlights. Bob asks the eternal question what would happen if the music ever started? The set really begins at CRAZY FINGERS which is beautiful with a stunning outro that has a different seque into DANCIN. This version is very large and upbeat. COSMIC CHARLIE wants to steal the show and almost does, it is an upbeat version with everyone present and beautiful leads. They tune up for the next set of songs and we are glad they do. Phil takes the lead into HELP ON THE WAY and everyone lets him as they all join in. SLIPKNOT! is always a favorite for me and this one does not dissapoint. Starting off very exploratory, devolving into its drums/space-ness that it has want to do - they go to some real primordial places here for sure. It gets down to just Jerry and the drummers then Phil joins in with some sublime Leshy Phil-o-drama. The experimentation goes on until Bobby brings the rythm back and they all come back to the surface to run and dance on top for awhile. This starts to sound a little like the Dark Stars of '69. Really. They all finally find a common vector in the universe to meet at so they can bubble into FRANKLIN'S TOWER. This is a really fine transition too. Too bad it goes into a very so-so FRANKLIN'S. The playing is good but they've lost the mojo they had and can't seem to concentrate. AROUND is not sounding stellar but still nice. Jerry is confused and tries to get fast too early and you're not really sure what they're going to do but they get slow again only to get fast in the next line. Then they just end it.

US BLUES kicks butt not.

Very nice show overall, well worth the listen. I'm thinking 6/11 and 6/12 were better shows though.



This post was modified by jglynn1.2 on 2010-01-06 17:59:01